Declined Suggested Changes to TF2 VSH Server

Hello everyone, I am posting this thread to raise some issues and solutions that myself and other regulars of our vsh server feel need updating or changing. There are many things we request so I will make a list of them now and explain for most why we have asked something to be redesigned.
Weapons - Some of these need to be re-balanced or given more of a purpose in the gamemode:
#Flame Thrower - This definitely needs a cooldown of about 5 seconds when airblasting as the spam will often allow hale to spam rage or get teammates such as spies killed because hale's position has been moved into the perfect place to attack the spy and getting the spy to fail their backstab, also an increase to m1 dmg as the pyro will rarely get a lot of dmg, this would also deter players from m2 spamming but having a cooldown on it shoul still be in place
#Flare Gun - Since pyro's dmg output isn't high by default in all slots, lets buff the dmg on the flare guns so it gets to be more useful to fight with
#Hale's Fists/Wrench/Kukri/Headtaker - The Random crits on these weapons are god awful when you play as a high head count demo, heavy, or a spy with active cloak. The random crit on hale's melee isn't needed and should be removed so that those who can survive a normal hit still can, he does enough damage by default anyway
#Classic - Add more dmg on headshots since it is more difficult to locate the head hitbox with custom models and this weapon has bodyshot dmg reduction so its almost useless
#Razorback - It'd be nice if this blocked 1 hit from hale just like the demo shields, just so it has more purpose
#Darwin's Danger Shield - gives 50 extra health just so it has more benefit to the player and so more purpose
#Baby Face's Blaster - If it could be added back it should have a decaying boost meter that would need 200 dmg to fill completely instead of 100, this would be to balance the extra speed the scout is getting so it wouldn't need to be banned from the server anymore
#Back Scatter - Its a high risk weapon to use in vsh for the minicrits as you have to get very close and it doesn't do much improved dmg so lets give it crits from behind, more default dmg but also more spread so that you do need to be right behind hale to get high crit dmg
#Heavy's Shotguns - These variants should be permanent crit boosted for the Heavy as he mainly uses minigun so there's no need for shotgun because of the little dmg so lets buff it with full crits so there's more benefit to using it in vsh
#Eureka Effect - I know it can be difficult to think its a good idea to add it back which is why we've thought of some rebalances, remove the ability to place teleporters, have a longer delay when casting to teleport to spawn, and if possible, use some metal when the teleport is done, this means one fixed location engie can tp to and it takes longer for him to get there and he uses some metal to get away
#Widowmaker - Add minicrits at the very least to this shotgun for engie as it can be way too risky to get profit metal dmg with it, engineer has no escape and needs to be next to hale to profit on metal so having minicrits would make it easier, not too far away to restock all metal but enough distance to do it safely
#Spycicle - Add a fairly strong slow for 3.5 seconds on backstab just so its not like stock but it actually has something unique, however add a slight movement speed reduction to the spy using it whether the weapon is active or inactive
Rules - Not too many we feel need to be adapted but some still could use a change:
#Capping - Only allowed if the last player on the enemy team is camping or hiding, should be allowed for slay or if need be over enough times a kick if doing it just to win because the player is too lazy to accept they can't beat hale or hale can't bother to chase anyone when the player isn't hiding and is trying to still kill them
#Scout - He needs to have something better as he has little dmg output which is part of his kit making him a runaway last survivor only purpose, maybe increase his dmg output so he's more benficial to the team
#Rage - This needs to be nerfed to a degree for some hales:

-Saxton- Maybe a 1 sec stun so its intial then following that 2 seconds of movement reduction and a total of 10 seconds including the first 3 seconds mentioned of dmg reduction increase to hale​

-Horsemann- Have teleport as part of his rage with the stun rather than being able to teleport at any time, making the teleport and his rage more useful but the stun should work like I mentioned with saxton, 10 sec dmg reduction, first sec stun, next 2 sec slow​

-Vagineer- No stun as he has uber anyway so its not like he needs to stun anyone, disabling buildings can still occur and being immune to all knockback including airblast we feel would be a nice change and have his uber last 10 seconds​

-Brutal Sniper- He should have a maximum of 5 arrows, it should have default dmg and stunning everyone around him should be removed but add dmg reduction and an uber like vagineeer's but it only lasts 5 seconds​

-Easter Bunny- Remove the stun and slow as his burst of grenades go everywhere and is guaranteed to kill at least someone if he's near anyone anyway​

I would like to finish off this thread by saying anyone who wishes to criticize these changes or feels I missed out anything just post as a reply below and I'll add some feedback if I feel the need. Many of us do want these changes and plan to give it support to ensure this happens. I spoke to blue about adding new maps aswell to change things up and give the server new life rather than going to the same maps everytime. If you feel these changes could take a long time to code don't worry, Hanto has already done the coding for most of this making the job partially already done for the server. I would prefer people who actually played on the server to give feedback rather than someone who doesn't have any experience attempting to change what has been said. Hopefully this gets the right attention it deserves and most if not all can be implemented into the server in the near future.

 

Most of these rebalance suggestions are horrid.
You can't just change the core kits of several classes and expect the gamemode to remain balanced.
It's obvious that you just made up most of these numbers

#Mic - This is less about the gamemode and more about the server, on our vsh server a lot and I mean a lot of kids 12 or under use the mic and many of us get annoyed with having to listen to it and it should be viable to mute anyone without hesitation when they sound of this age

This part is absolutely ridiculous.
First of all, you have no idea how old these people may be.
Next to that, anyone should have the right to play games regardless of age.
If a 12 year old boy is speaking proper English over mic and following the rules, he deserves to be muted according to your reasoning.
TF2 has a nice feature in which you can personally mute someone. Neat huh?

Also, this wall of text was a pain to read through.
I might add more reasoning later.

 

I used to be Head Admin here on FoG on the custom servers.
Meaning I was in charge of moderating and checking admin activity on jailbreak, vsh and surf/deathrun.
Just because the newer generation doesn't know me, doesn't mean my opinion is irrelevant.

 

I haven't seen you playing on the server in the past as well. So it's fair to say you aren't a frequent player on the vsh server. Regular players on the server have complained about the issues discussed in Enrimeus' post. All changes/ideas are very reasonable if not very good. The server can use these changes very well. Furthermore, muting players troughout the TF integrated mechanics can take a long time and 12 year olds can be really really annoying. So if an Admin can mute these players who are irritating the whole server, no one will be hurt. Talk clearly trough the mic or don't talk at all. At last I want to say that all of Enrimeus ideas and changes are very good and I hope they will pass because these are the rules and changes we, the regurals of the server, needs.

-Zyro

 

As I said in the reply to Starfish' post I'd like to see all these changes on the server. All of the rules and Ideas Enrimeus stated are things we, the players, need. So I'd say; Yes to everything.

Greets, Zyroxeon

 

You're taking personal stabs at me now. Really?
Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean you should personally target me or get your friends to vouch for you.

I don't need to be a vsh regular to see that you made most, if not all, of these numbers up.
You don't bother explaining where you got these numbers from and instead you pretend you know me and talk smack.
Instead you present a half-assed list with incomplete arguments.

I suggest you keep your cool.

 

Starfish is a previous member, admin, and manager here on the forum. His opinion, no matter when, will be taken into account severely.
He has applied for Veteran Admin for TF2. You can look up yourself what that means.

No matter if "regular" or not, some suggestions are as he said really questionable. Everyone has the right to talk, etc.
And sorry if that discomforts you that I am a csgo admin.

 

I wish to offer my sincerest apology, I don't mean to come off aggressive in text but I've realised some of what I've been saying was very wrong, I would like to rephrase what I have said in the appropriate manner. The numbers I have chosen for the changes were tested by me and others in a private vsh server hosted by Hanto so we could check balances. Almost all of these balances have been tested and are going to be tested further. Many regulars on the server are the one's who will have to be dealing with anything on the servers first hand so this affects them. So I feel it should be them who spoke up about what may be disagreed, I am friends with most of the regulars on the server so I'm not getting friends to back me up, I'm asking those who join the server on a frequent basis to speak up for what they've been asking for, its a lot of pressure to try to help out the people in your own server and I can act irrationally under this pressure, but I guess that's why I'm just a trainee, I need to practice handling this sort of pressure better and that's what I guess a mentor is for and one of the things I'll be learning to get to grips with as an admin.

 

I'll join here too as VSH admin.
Like Starfish mentioned I'm currently not agreeing with the changes completely. I don't consider them really "balancing" since there should be currently already some balancing things and it would shift the core of certain gameplay styles. Eg:

• CBS has a very small stun range and his ammo depends on amount of players alive.
• Easter Bunny's rage is considered weak imo due to it's huge spread and inability to use melee (medics can counter this hard with uber)
• Saxtons core is depending for a huge part also on his rage like all other bosses. His rage is used as punishing tool for teams who camp together (can also be countered with medic ubers by popping it right)
• Vagineer does indeed seem OP with his uber, but he has it while having a reduced stun range, this could cause trouble when trying to clear sentry nests without having his uber. Yes he seems invulnerable and able to get rid of everyone because nobody can hit him and pyros extend his uber but don't forget some weapons and environment. Loose Cannons often can help by knockbacking the Vaginee and getting him away from your team or knock him into some pit (should work with airblasts)
• Crits could be sometimes unfair but it does give the hale a chance to defeat tanky classes which he misses often (due to their speed as demoknights for example)
• Snipers crit at default already, even when it isn't shown. That's why headshots don't deal increased damage unless mini-crit boosted, on other servers I've seen the sniper has perma crit buff on so at us it could deal more damage since crits don't stack with mini-crits. (Here a new strat for more damage already)
• It could be true about the Classic but that gives a reason not to use it, it may be tough to still find a balance for it so I'd suggest just not using it or replace it with default sniper until this could be figured out later
• Razorback should block one hit already
• About airblasts, it is true that they spam it a lot, but they often get it punished for doing it since hales can rage them (rage gone, pyro gone, win win situation at inexperienced hales).
• Scouts indeed lack the damage but they're superior in cheap knockbacks to save meds (gives speed buffs also). Further late into the round they can gain (mini-)crits due to their survivalibility (is this a word?), this increases their damage by a huge amount if played properly.
• The hale rages were nerfed long ago by increasing the required damage to 8000, lower airblast percentage also?
• Pyro's flareguns are indeed weak-ish but pyros are never ment to be the real high damage classes. Pyro's are often used as life-saving class who airblasts hales away when they rage teams, at sentry nests and in other situations
• Caps are often a tough point to find a real solution to, it's mostly used by cowardly hales but also if a hale is not planning to stall the round for another 4-5 minutes by chasing a annoying scout while having +5k health
• Heavy's are fine currently in my opinion, shotguns do not really have any contribution to his kit and are often replaced with sandvich for himself/his team

Don't forget I'm usually Market Gardening as soldier, this usually becomes easier when a hale keeps chasing a scout which can result in similair damage as backstabs. Scouts are often useful for these kind of things (distractions, save and more).


Things I do agree on:

• Darwin's Danger Shield has same purpose as Razorback if it's bit buffed so that's a idea I support (200 health is enough I think)
• Widow maker indeed could use a small buff due to it's lack of ability to get metal/damage, I'm not sure about giving it either mini-crits or just higher damage. I think the engineer should still be playing bit risky in order to get rewarded with more metal but not that he has to go fully in, possibly a damage buff could suffice.
• Baby's Face could indeed be added back with that stat but I don't think anyone's planning to create that custom stat
• I'm not sure about the spy-cicle stats, it could possibly made bit different but the current could cause chaining (needs someone who wants to program it)
• Back Scatter could indeed use crits from behind which rewards for playing risky or "increased damage from behind and decreased damage from front" stats

Things I would like back:

• Bonk! Atomic Punch due to it usually being a life-saver when scouts are running away and distracting hales

If there's something I forgot you can mention it
This isn't ment as personal attack if it feels like it .-.

 

This was the criticism I was looking for, not just saying everything's wrong and not explaining why, this is actually constructive. Don't forget we are already practically testing this to see if there's anything really broken or not, we already coded many weapons including the spycicle. I'd still like to argue about random crits, a heavy is meant to be tanky and therefore take about 2 hits but they are very immobile, especially when attacking (even with the gloves of running urgently) so its not like they can get away for too long. Spies also suffer as their cloak doesn't block the crit damage meaning they can't defend and escape when they try. Demomen usually have a shield that block the first hit anyway and they only get enough normal hp to survive by stacking heads. Everything else you have debated makes a lot of sense but I would still like to try and test everything with Hanto so we can get a real definitive answer on how this would work rather than making educated guesses.
Also, I'd like to know your thoughts on the eureka effect since you mentioned about missing anything

 

Could you invite me later to discuss some stats for some weapons?
About Eureka I'm not sure yet.
@Spartan
Old regular, could help out here.

 

Just my personal opinion but you should've thought about the pressure you might get as admin before you applied for it, as an admin is supposed to keep a clear mind even if theres a lot of stuff going on in the backround or he needs to handle multiple things at once.

Also you're not just a trainee to learn handling your temper, we expect you to be able to control yourself and show yourself as a friendly person to help people out with problems and accept criticism. Your Mentors function if mainly to help you with questions like if something is allowed or not or if you need someone to be banned since you can't ban yourself yet so they'll look into it and not teaching you how to behave under several circumstances.

Sorry if I seem to be a bit rude here, I don't want to attack you with this, I just wanted to point out how I see things(not like anyone cares ).

 

I think these are very good changes and it would make the game more balanced. And you really put effort into this thread.

 

@Faggot that is the case for most trainees, but the mentor should help them any way they can. En has already realized his mistakes and I'm very sure that he will get better at all the things you pointed out in the future.

Now on the actual subject of this thread
I support the changes to airblast and hale crits, it's something everyone complains about.

 

No I understand, but I can better myself if I make sure I keep my mind to it

 

@TheBluekr the change to eureka effect would basically make it a teleporter, so why not just use a teleporter?

 

Teleporters leave a particle effect when active, Eureka doesn't has it when there's no entrance. Further easier escapes when tp's on cd.

 

@TheBluekr
Sure,

1) Fair play, most pyros just spam it and it builds up too much rage and also means that the pyro players do not learn if they can just spam m2.
2) Heck no, flare gun is already OP.
3) Random crits are evil, yet they are balanced, those with high head counts arleady are fast and do lots of damage, dying in one is just a part of the issue and most will have the sheild anyway.
4) Its usless and so it should never be used not buffed
5) That could be a nice addition for snipers.
6) ? Why 50 hp would do nothing.
7) No, most hales dont even know how to jump.
8) It could be good to improve the back scratcher, but then we might have more scout noobs >.<.
9) Heavy shotgun having perma crits could be nice.
10) The Eureka was never too broken to begin with this would be a nice addon.
11) Widow maker doesn't need any crits in my opinion it works well without them, if you had the mini sentry you could pratically delay and inifinitley place more.
12) That would be a bit op for other spies, it would make chaning backstabs soo much easier.
13) No one like dirty cappers, agreed.
14) Scout it already good, dont buff a class that does not need it, the people who dont get damage are the people who 1) don't bother learning 2) prefer to run away.
15) Rage has been heavily nerfed already, this is not needed at all.

 

Thank you for the input, I'd like to say and add that me, blue and hanto have all discussed the changes together and some of these things have been heavily changed to what all 3 of us think would be fair and balanced. Making the purpose and change a lot better. For example, the razorback gives a burst escape, it blocks 1 hit and whenever the sniper takes damage, he gains increased movement speed that only lasts for a few seconds, we just need more testing and we think we have some willing volunteers to help test. Eventually we'll come to a conclusion about these changes but we understand the amount of time its going to take won't be fast.